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Sunday, November 30, 2014

EMS 1- Roles of MD's and EMT's

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October 14, 2014
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The Question
by EMS1 Community

Do EMTs or MDs have greater authority on a medical emergency scene?

Read the response and add your own thoughts in the comments


A question posted recently on Quora asked "Who has greater authority on the scene of a medical emergency, EMTs or MDs?" EMT-P Anderson Moorer gave his opinion on the topic. Read his response, and add your own to the comments.
The senior EMT on scene has the responsibility for decision making regarding patient care and has the authority to choose to disregard medical orders from physicians excepting those in their chain of command.

All EMTs are operating under the direction of a physician in every aspect of medical care at all times, either "on-line" via radio and telemetry with physicians in their chain of command or "off line" via pre-established standing orders signed by a medical director.

That EMT may and often will make the decision to accept medical direction from a physician on scene, and must also recognize that a conscious and alert patient may choose to accept care from a physician and/or refuse care from EMS. When a physician on scene wishes to direct medical care, the usual protocol is to contact and gain approval of the current on-line MD or follow existing directions on how to respond which vary depending on the agency.

When an EMT does cede medical control to an on-scene physician they are still bound by their usual scope of practice (they cannot follow orders for treatment which exceed their abilities or training) and they are bound to re-assume control when the on-site physician either leaves or deviates from an appropriate standard of care.

The physician cannot give orders and walk away, or give instructions for care during transport without riding along. They must also provide documentation of care, their credentials, etc.

The EMT has both police on scene and physicians in the ER available to back any decisions in this regard.

In a practical sense, usually the only physicians who will want to get involved are capable critical care providers already known to EMS and able to integrate smoothly with a simple call to the hospital.

On very rare occasions EMS encounters someone who identifies themselves as a physician who is suspect. They may be lying or in a grey area like a medical student, or what have you. Usually, it quickly becomes obvious that they are not capable of a professional level of intervention and if a typical brush off doesn’t work EMS calls in seeking an order to maintain control while catching the eye of the nearest police officer. It happens, but only rarely.

Most paramedics and EMT supervisors are quickly able to establish who should be in control of patient care in an emergency; and they do not cede control unless absolutely certain it is both legal and in the best interest of the patient.
About the author
"The Question" section brings together user-generated articles from our Facebook page based on questions we pose to our followers, as well as some of the best content we find on Quora, a question-and-answer website created, edited and organized by its community of users who are often experts in their field. The site aggregates questions and answers for a range of topics, including public safety. The questions and answers featured here on EMS1 are posted directly from Quora, and the views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of EMS1.
Comments
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Chuck Bloomingburg Chuck Bloomingburg Thursday, October 23, 2014 6:51:28 PM We could all be in trouble if the emergency happens to be in the morning in the lobby of a Holiday Inn Express.
Jeremy Clark Jeremy Clark Saturday, October 25, 2014 4:15:39 PM Shouldn't they mean Paramedic? An EMT operates under a Paramedic's licensure, not a physicians, unless they're a BLS rig. Typically a Paramedic has on-scene Med-Con until a Medic supervisor or physician arrives. Only way I see an EMT having on-scene is if they're first on scene.
Jesiah Hostetler Jesiah Hostetler Saturday, October 25, 2014 4:19:50 PM In my area we have one medic on our dept that doesn't respond to a lot of calls, but we usually mutual aid for bad ones, say we don't mutual aid.. Then the EMT is
Bryan Taylor Bryan Taylor Saturday, October 25, 2014 4:20:43 PM Great response. exactly as we handle the situation in our service.
MD Responders Unite MD Responders Unite Saturday, October 25, 2014 4:32:38 PM Last time I checked it did say EMT above the Paramedic on my patch. The article itself is well written. Who cares if is says Emt or Paramedic. Emt's on a BLS truck still work under the standing orders of a physician.
David Perry David Perry Saturday, October 25, 2014 4:33:40 PM it doesn't matter if an EMT or paramedic is on scene...i was always taught that you are the highest medical authority....a smart basic or intermediate(if there are any left), will cede scene control to a paramedic, who will generally show up in an ambulance...if someone shows up and says they are a paramedic or doctor or nurse, a show of credentials and a call on the radio to medical control should settle the whole thing...i was also taught that if a doctor/paramedic does assume control, then they assume care of the patient and must ride along to the hospital....
Rex Witkamp Rex Witkamp Saturday, October 25, 2014 4:33:46 PM What to do about a suppression duty supervisor who keeps interfering with patient care and makes transport decisions over the EMT and medical director. Caviat: supervisor not medically qualified as an EMT or even a First Responder, yet is the chief of the shift.
Brandon Lindemann Brandon Lindemann Saturday, October 25, 2014 4:40:12 PM EMT's operate under the same Medical Director as the Paramedic.
Chris Starkey Chris Starkey Saturday, October 25, 2014 4:40:37 PM it al comes down to each state medical board needs to have a DR's ems, or oncene medical comand class, and mci 1 and 2 , every 2 years and update as protocals do to avoid. the spegettie of tangeled law suits,and mis understandings that could insue if somone shows up and starts barking orders that may have ony delft with real emergency 4 years ago in the er roation or medschool. as long as a DR. falls in to the chainof comand somewere propperly it can save alot of stress and alot of miss cmunication.
Jeffrey Vanderpool Jeffrey Vanderpool Saturday, October 25, 2014 4:50:32 PM Easy....ok Dr. Smith if you are taking control that means you ride in with us and leave your BMW on scene. Usually takes care of it.
Joseph Russo Jr Joseph Russo Jr Saturday, October 25, 2014 4:56:20 PM They both do...
Tom D'Alessandro Tom D'Alessandro Saturday, October 25, 2014 5:11:59 PM I was on a flight when a passenger suffered a medical emergency. The flight crew asked for assistance . As a NREMT-B, I offered help, as did a gentleman who identified himself as a doctor. The patient was diaphoretic, hypertensive, experiencing radiating chest pain, short of breath, with a history and list of meds that indicated a cardiac event. The "doctor" was actually a psychiatrist who believed the patient was having a panic attack. Suffice to say, after signaling the pilot to declare a medical emergency and asking him to establish contact with a destination medical center via air traffic control, I was able to give a brief report and take control of the patient care. The "doctor" wasn't happy, however the patient outcome was positive.
Nathan Bleam Nathan Bleam Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:19:20 PM I had a really bad MVA rollover and a trauma doc from out of the area showed up. He attempted to give us advise several times...we did not have time to call medical command to have this doc take over care, he wasn't able to provide me any credentials, and did not want to ride with us to the hospital. He insisted that we had to listen to him. I eventually had a police officer removed him....he was advised if he approached us again he would be arrested. I cannot stand when a podiatrist shows up on scene and tries to dictate emergency care......
Kate Washburn Kate Washburn Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:21:51 PM "If there are any left"? Don't forget where you came from...pretty sure you were green once too! That's disrespectful to your partners and public safety. I'd like to see you do patient care and drive at the same time! It's a team effort...and your only as dumb as your leader!
JoAnn Griesenauer JoAnn Griesenauer Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:27:45 PM This was an excellent topic. Encountered this through the years between the fake ones and also had Dentists and Optometrist try to take over scenes of trauma. I ask in a clear voice if they are assuming to take responsibility for the scene. It usually shows their hand. Most will either be good help or let us do our job. The trauma doctors on scenes are respectful and a good team but the ones that try to jump in on the action and have no prehospital training can turn it into a cluster.
Tyler Leslie Tyler Leslie Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:29:50 PM I have had RNs do that, it pisses me off every time because they think they're more qualified than us... They have no authority out side of a hospital
Tom Gan Tom Gan Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:30:28 PM Kate I took it as if there are any intermediates left.
Kate Washburn Kate Washburn Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:45:48 PM Considering they still teach the classes, I'm pretty sure there are!
Lindsey P Cameron-Briley Lindsey P Cameron-Briley Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:46:51 PM Kate Washburn I also believe David meant if there are any EMT-is left, as the system seems to be phasing them out.... at least in my state everyone is an EMT-B or Paramedic.
Jeep Guy Jeep Guy Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:53:03 PM The system is phasing out EMT-I's. Calm down Kate.
Kate Washburn Kate Washburn Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:54:52 PM I would've taken that way too if it wasn't preceded by "smart"!
Kristy Samuels Strassner Kristy Samuels Strassner Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:56:49 PM Intermediate we still exist:) Just a few
Renee Johns Horton Renee Johns Horton Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:57:40 PM Last I checked, emt comes before paramedic on my licensure. The article is well written. As a emt-paramedic, you can make that decision and you are responsible for that decision you make. But, you are operating under the medical director's license as well
Jeremy Clark Jeremy Clark Saturday, October 25, 2014 7:27:58 PM Brandon Lindemann well if a Medic and EMT are working together and the EMT screws up, responsibility falls on the Medic unfortunately.
Matt Donnell Matt Donnell Saturday, October 25, 2014 7:31:38 PM I have found that most physicians are much happier not getting involved. In Michigan, for them to take control of the patient not only requires them contacting our Medical Control and getting their approval, but they then must also accompany the patient to the hospital. I have to tip my hat to whatever clever State Legislator wrote that in, because before that, you could have find yourself following the orders of an ophthalmologist. Not to discount any Doc, but.... The real problems I have encountered on scene are with RNs. They don't seem to grasp that a ditch on the interstate at 3AM is not the hospital, and they might just be out of their element. I have found the most tactful thing to do is hand them a 'scope and BP cuff, and tell them i need vitals every three minutes. It's a win-win for all involved.
Jeremy Clark Jeremy Clark Saturday, October 25, 2014 7:33:30 PM Should really slow down typing and/or use spell check...just saying, lol
Matt Donnell Matt Donnell Saturday, October 25, 2014 7:33:50 PM Tyler Leslie , see my comment above - give 'em a scope and a BP cuff and tell 'em you need vitals every three minutes....
John Neikens John Neikens Saturday, October 25, 2014 7:37:06 PM Paramedics are not licensed and emts don't work under there license. All prehospital EMS providers work under the medical director
Jamie Sturm Leflet Jamie Sturm Leflet Saturday, October 25, 2014 7:37:10 PM I always over ride them based on medical education and tell them they can visit the issue of insubordination later... then I take it up the chain of command. ..power vs patient care might result in a law suit
Matt Donnell Matt Donnell Saturday, October 25, 2014 7:37:21 PM it's an odd thing, but in MI, our licenses no longer say EMT-Paramedic, just Paramedic. And for years before that, we weren't Medics, but Advanced EMTs.....
Jeremy Clark Jeremy Clark Saturday, October 25, 2014 7:44:06 PM EMT no longer comes before Paramedic on the NREMT and is not on either one of my licensures. Perhaps it's a different form?
Jonathan Farrow Jonathan Farrow Saturday, October 25, 2014 8:03:08 PM Despite the fine print trying to exonerate yourselves "from the opinions expressed in this article", this is some of the most dangerous journalism on this site. The "chain of command" and protocols for a physician OB scene vary from district to district. There is no right answer, and considering the number of EMTs that get their education from this site you have inevitably set some young impressionable EMT up for disaster. Instead of trying to preach protocol perhaps next time we could have an article about professionalism and respect on scene. I've had physicians on scenes before and never had an issue, I explain our limitations and ask for their opinion and none have wanted to take over my scene especially when I ask them if their malpractice insurance well cover them working a accident on the side off the road "Because I've heard if doctors getting screwed and don't want it to happen to you". Instead of worrying about whose "license" is bigger let's work towards actually being a recognized branch of the healthcare spectrum.
Gordie Williams Gordie Williams Saturday, October 25, 2014 8:18:23 PM Jeremy Clark the paramedic gets shouted at but the emt gets fired
Aaron Hepps Aaron Hepps Saturday, October 25, 2014 8:23:13 PM Incorrect. EMT's do not work under a Paramedics Cert or License. As a basic, I worked in an ALS system. I had to board and test just like a paramedic and answer directly to the medical director just as a paramedic. Everyone works under the Systems Medical Director, not under a non-MD. That's called practicing without a license. Only MD's have license to practice on their own which they extend to each person under them.
Gordie Williams Gordie Williams Saturday, October 25, 2014 8:26:30 PM Aaron Hepps very true
Robert E. Burns Robert E. Burns Saturday, October 25, 2014 8:28:18 PM I am a retired ER doc. I have on occasion stopped at the scene of a MVA mainly to observe if there are enough personnel present to take care of the victims. Usually there are and I leave. Once or twice EMS was overwhelmed and waiting for backup so I identified myself and asked what I could do to help. No trying to take control, just lending a hand. Worked out fine. Also first on scene a couple of times. Made trauma surveys and reported to EMS when they arrived. No problem, but I don't have the ego problems some have.
Aaron Hepps Aaron Hepps Saturday, October 25, 2014 8:31:06 PM @Jeremy Clark, not true. Each person on the rig is responsible for their actions. I have seen basics fired for screwing up and the paramedic cleared. It's all in what happen and who had the care. The senior person (cert) isn't always responsible for the patient. Esp in cases of multiple patients or if the lower certified has care and the senior is driving.
Thom Swan Thom Swan Saturday, October 25, 2014 8:38:11 PM Called to a physician's office for a patient in cardiac arrest. FD on scene performing CPR. As soon as we hit the door the obviously freaked-out Doc says "we need to just load and go." My response was "do you think we should put her on the monitor and defibrillate if indicated?" He agreed. Asystole. Doc says "we need to load and go." I respond "do you think we should establish an IV first?" Doc agreed, so I got a line. Doc says "we need to load and go." I respond "Do you think we should administer an amp of epinephrine first?" Doc agreed. Long story shorter - for each step in the code I asked the doc "do you think we should...." Each time, doc agreed. The result was ROSC and delivery of a viable patient to the ER, the patient was discharged home a week later, neurologically intact. The physician (I don't recall his specialty but it was an outpatient surgical procedure of some sort or another) got to strut around boasting of how he saved the patient's life, and I got to keep my job without creating a huge medico-political brouhaha. It can work the same way out on the streets. "My protocol says I need to ...(whatever), do you agree?" If he says "no", ask why not - s/he may have a valid reason. If it's not a valid reason, then you can deal with the power-trip. If you can avoid the power trip by stroking the doc's ego a little bit and letting him (or her) feel like his or her authority is being recognized, you can generally save yourself some heartburn.
Gillian Hurlburt Cox Gillian Hurlburt Cox Saturday, October 25, 2014 8:52:46 PM One of the most injurious mva's I ever worked had a trauma doc and neuro surgeon first ion scene. We were in the boondocks, the kids were hurt bad, open abd wound, obvious spinal deformities, vomiting blood, +loc... each doc had taken care of 1 pt on opposite sides of the car until we started arriving. Other than ask what more they could do to help these docs never questioned us and offered their expertise at every opportunity. If you believe in a higher power this was a day it intervened. Both kids lived, and eventually walked again! One even survived another major wreck I was on about 5 years later! I learned that day that sometimes help comes in unexpected forms. I have worked my way up to ER nurse and Nurse Practitioner, if I stop to help onscene I still call myself an eMt "intermediate" (yes I kept that current!) Moral of the story, don't blow people off, never know when you'll need a hand.
Kris Anderson Kris Anderson Saturday, October 25, 2014 9:10:12 PM I wish I could follow you around all day & absorb your knowledge like a little sponge with feet. :-)
Jeffery Carlton Jeffery Carlton Saturday, October 25, 2014 9:45:49 PM Yes EMT intermediates still exsist I got mine in Texas jan 2008
Brian Kane Brian Kane Saturday, October 25, 2014 10:05:32 PM Thankfully it is cut and dry in Penna. Are you a Medical Command Doctor? Yes or No. If yes than your in command. If no than do what you are told.
Brian Kane Brian Kane Saturday, October 25, 2014 10:13:07 PM Unless they are a medical command physician, it is my scene. Again: professional courtesy matters - we got called to a scene with the patients primary care doctor, as the family had just over ridden the Patient's DNR - in my commonwealth family can ignore the DNR. Doctor told us about the DNR and family wishes. We did CPR, started a line (not IO), did not intubate , perhaps two epis and family doctor called it. I contacted command just to dot my i's but in the end it was the family doctor signing the death certificate.
Brian Kane Brian Kane Saturday, October 25, 2014 10:17:03 PM Also, pretty huge assumption that there well be law enforcement on scene. If you have cops on all your scenes, you need to find a new job.
Jeremy Clark Jeremy Clark Saturday, October 25, 2014 11:40:09 PM What I'm referring to is that an EMT, while is generally under a physicians licensure, also works under a Medic as part of an extension of the Medic's licensure. While the Medic may not always be responsible for the EMT's actions, he/she is primarily responsible for the pt's care and typically actions of the EMT involved with pt care.
Jim Maher Jim Maher Sunday, October 26, 2014 4:44:27 AM Easy there. I'm pretty sure you're the only one who read it that way. Reign it back in, take a deep breath
Brooks Anderson Brooks Anderson Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:54:10 AM Actually the EMT-I's are being phased out and replaced with Advanced EMT's (AEMT) and this level has more skills available to them than the EMT-I's did.
Derek Dinges Derek Dinges Sunday, October 26, 2014 9:15:51 AM I usually get proctologists or podiatrists on scene. Dr's make great assets on field calls...as IV poles.
William W. Winkleman Jr. William W. Winkleman Jr. Sunday, October 26, 2014 10:02:58 AM I do highly agree with this.and if a doctor is on sceane then the Doctor should signe a sheet saying that he is in charge of tje pt. That he is treating and ride in back with the pt. With a psp following them.
Joe Carey Joe Carey Sunday, October 26, 2014 10:54:40 AM What ever happened to working together, 30 minutes after a call who remembers. The in fighting has gotten rediculous
Bill Hardy Bill Hardy Sunday, October 26, 2014 2:50:52 PM I have had a local family practice Doc end up on my scene several times in the past. I have a lot respect for this Dr. every time he has showed up at my scen his first words after introducing (the first few times) is "How can I help, what do you need?" I have even ran a delivery in his parking lot where he turned the intubation of a new born over to me because I was in a better position to accomplish what needed to be done.. Great Dr. who really respects EMS and what we do. Working an MVA one evening where there was a significant mech of injury. 17 y/o female refusing all treatment. Did finally get her to step up in the ambulance and atleastlet ua assess her. Her father was onscene and inthe truck with us. She was still refusing transport, which I was not comfortable with. The Dr. showed up and opened the back doors of the truck. He again, as usual, asked if I needed any help. I had him get in and talk with the pt about going. She still refused. Ultimatly she refuesed AMA and with her Dad there he wouldnt make her go. He did, however, get her to agree to let him take her. I have had to deal with the Doc's who want to be in charge as well but I wanted to share my experience that all Dr.s who come onto our scenes are not always negative to deal with.
Do Koolmac D Care Do Koolmac D Care Sunday, October 26, 2014 5:29:25 PM The author is absolutely "right on". Most MDs who happen to be in the area (in my 30-plus years), have lost the "basics" needed on the street; and I don't know of any who can do blood work or x-ray a patient on-scene. It is best to thank them for the offer, but gently remind them they are not your medical control, you are trained and you will handle this as this is your job, your domain.
Rick Shuffler Rick Shuffler Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:55:02 PM I tell the doctors , or nurses for that matter, if they assume patient care, then they must ride to the ER with us. We assume liability if a doctor assumes care then gives care back to us. Also, It's fun to see the look that comes over their faces as they stammer, then tell you to carry on. Solves my problem every single time.
Mack Isgro Mack Isgro Sunday, October 26, 2014 9:42:51 PM That's pathetic that he'd even say he's a doctor and try to help if he doesn't know anything with the medical field.
Lori Wyndham McFadden Lori Wyndham McFadden Sunday, October 26, 2014 10:03:13 PM I am a Registered Nurse. I am certain that we ALL have had different training. It is unfortunate that attitudes toward other clinicians (EMT, paramedic, MD, RN, etc.) are still standing in the way of patient care. We should all be working together to provide optimal care for patients no matter what the situation. It is also ALL of our professional responsibility to know our scope of practice and continue to learn to work together so that the process for the patient is as smooth as possible. Let's respect each other's work and be ready to help each other when the situation arises.
Maureen Personeni- Haley Maureen Personeni- Haley Monday, October 27, 2014 6:45:54 AM As an RN who does NOT work in the E.R. the most I would do is identify myself as an RN and ask you what can I do to help you. You are in charge, not me. That is not my field of expertise. Please, do not paint all RN's as glory hounds.
Anjy Wheeler Anjy Wheeler Monday, October 27, 2014 1:37:18 PM Fuck him its your license not his. Our dispatch tells us to do stuff that is against our licensing protocol all the time. Very few of us are dumb enough to listen. Call the guy above him, call corporate if you need to and when all else fails rely on your training.
Kevin Michael Padden Kevin Michael Padden Monday, October 27, 2014 7:42:19 PM Very Well Put Thom !!! Your "diplomatic" skills are showing and they have worked well for you sir - BRAVO !!! I agree with EVERYTHING you've said !
Thom Swan Thom Swan Tuesday, October 28, 2014 9:16:01 AM Brian Kane, my case was complicated by the fact that I was called to the physician's office - it was HIS turf and therefore a potential minefield of medico-legal hazards. I have no clue how or why that approach popped into my brain, but I'm really glad it did. I'm convinced that had I just tried to take over the scene either the patient would have died, I'd have been looking for a new career field, or perhaps both. Seriously, that event occurred during the "paragod" phase of my career. I think that call was a strong behavioral reinforcer prompting me to develop better diplomatic skills, though. Back then I was far more inclined to just bull may way through and let the debris fall where it might. In your case the response seems to have been just as diplomatic. You came up with a solution that allowed you to meet the family's expectation as well as the physician's and still comply with the law applicable to your setting. I'm guessing the presenting rhythm as asystole? I'm curious. What would have been the potential medico-legal consequences had you achieved ROSC? What if that ROSC was accompanied by a poor neurological outcome?
Judi Costa Judi Costa Wednesday, October 29, 2014 12:19:29 PM My husband and I were driving to Myrtle Beach, SC one night for a short vacation, when we drove up on a "hit by car" that had just occurred. It was a 15 y/o female that was trying to cross a busy highway and was struck. She was conscious and alert, but still laying on the ground with some bystanders around. My husband was a trooper with the NC State Highway Patrol so he went and did what he normally would do - get the traffic moving so an ambulance would be able to come straight into the scene. I was a NCEMT-P with NREMT-P also, and even though this occurred in SC, I was the only one on the scene at that moment with any medical experience, so I started doing a head-to-toe survey on the patient so I would be able to give a detailed report to the ambulance when it arrived. A gentleman came up and said, "I'm a doctor. Can I help?" So I naturally started telling him what injuries (fortunately nothing serious) I was finding. He then said, "Look, I'm a podiatrist and you look like you really know what you're doing, so let me know what I can do to help you!" I said thank you and asked him to hold C-spine and I continued on until the ambulance got there. I thanked him afterwards for helping me and he said he had been a podiatrist too long to be of much use at that scene other than with basic stuff!

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